The Laws of Hyper Reality: What AR and VR Developers Should be Doing Right Now

"This isn't science fiction anymore. We are rapidly approaching the point where we will be able to customise our level of interaction with reality..."

This episode (available here) features two award-winning creators, Muki Kulhan and Rob Morgan, and explores how the rise of Augmented and Virtual Reality comes with some big legal problems for developers. The same technology that can enable us to interact with the world and each other in amazing new ways, includes tools that can be used to inflict serious harm. Just because developers don't need to stick to AR or VR specific regulation right now, doesn't mean that day won't come...

In this episode, we discuss the Cyber-XR's 'Immersive Technology Standards' which you can find here: https://cyberxr.org/research-and-standards/

Muki Kulhan is a multi-award-winning (BAFTA, BIMA) Executive Digital XR Producer with decades of experience spanning a huge range of interactive formats. To give just one example of her work as an Executive Producer, Muki revolutionised BBC's The Voice UK with the first-ever series of 360°VR for a flagship show.

Rob Morgan is an immersive experience designer, digital dramaturge, and founder of Playlines. Amongst his vast array of projects, Rob wrote and voice-directed the acclaimed A Fisherman's Tale (Game of the Year, VR Awards 2019).

The Legal Bytes Podcast is a Queen Mary University of London Project produced by Postgraduate Law Students in collaboration with the Technology, Media and Telecommunications Law Institute and in association with qLegal.

Free Resources:

Recording Software: https://cleanfeed.net/

Editing Software: https://www.audacityteam.org/

Transcription: https://otter.ai

Full Transcription:

Amber 0:01

Hyper reality: the digital layer that virtual and augmented reality impose on the world is seeing massive amounts of investment from tech companies, game developers, and even the pharmaceutical industry. But for small developers looking to get in on the action and stay ahead of the game, these fantastic opportunities come with some big legal problems.

Rob 0:22

This isn't science fiction anymore. We are rapidly approaching the point where lots of us will be able to customise our level of interaction with reality. And to customise how reality appears to us, you and I could be able to walk down the same street and see it very differently and see different things that we might see different political adverts on the same wall occupying the same space, we might be able to opt out of seeing certain things or even certain people. But I think, on a commercial basis, as well as on an ethical basis, small and big developers need to seriously think about not just the goodwill that they are resting on, when they do their design. We're building in frameworks and mechanics to make them stick to their own frameworks, in order to make sure that there isn't a creep of creepiness in terms of this kind of technology, because that's what happened with the internet. And it proved and is proving extremely difficult to arrest, especially when it's the basis of some of the most powerful business models that currently define our society. That is what happens inside the computer. And that's what's gonna start happening on the street.

Amber 1:44

That's Robert Morgan, writer of 2019 VR game of the year, a former lead game writer, a PlayStation and founder and creative director of the AR design studio play lines.

Rob 1:55

Let's think about the worst case scenario from the perspective of a developer, especially a small developer who's who's out at commercial and various other kinds of legal risks. I think there are going to be assaults, there are going to be robberies, there are going to be slanders there are going to be sexualization of people and sexual violations of people that are really significant and which we don't know how to cope with. And just to give like a really inflammatory example, is not hard to imagine. And you could get quite a long way towards it with current tools. It's not hard to imagine someone being able to build a tool, which allows them to walk down the street and see people or see certain people and superimpose graphics on top of their physical bodies, which make it look like they're naked. What does that mean? What does it mean if those nakedness models are based on photos of real people? What does it mean if it's based on a photo of that person, but they do not expect or are even aware that you are currently augmenting them in a way that is sexualizing them?

What does that mean?

Amber 3:25

On this episode of legal bites, we'll be talking about how small developers can guard against these issues by utilising existing industry guidelines. Specifically, we'll be talking about the cyber xR guidelines which have been created by prominent members of the industry, so creators and developers don't have to wait for the law to catch up with technology. I'm your host, Amber Boothe. And joining me today is a BAFTA award winning, BIMA award winning executive digital XR producer who is literally one of the people writing the legal guidelines from hyperreality. It's time to jump on a call with Muki Kulhan.

Muki 3:59

Hello, Amber, how are you?

Amber 4:01

I'm doing very well. If you don't mind, let's just jump straight into my first question.

Muki 4:06

Let's go for it.

Amber 4:07

So first of all, I guess riffing off all of the many seeds that role planted in his intro.

Muki 4:15

Good ol Rob Morgan planting seeds.

Amber 4:17

But I'd very much like to hear kind of how much of an issue Do you think the lack of regulation in the AR and VR sector is,

Muki 4:26

you know what, it's an issue that we discuss in our industry circles. Regularly You know, when I'm sure Rob mentioned xR, si and the work we're doing to create some industry set standards for bringing awareness to safety and inclusion, diversity, ethical, you know, fairness. And I also work very closely with the cyber xR coalition, which is an extension of xR Si, which is the XR safety initiative. But all we can do now is help bring up these topics and raise awareness So that way people can start to create experiences with the right frame of mind and knowing that, you know, privacy is an issue, safety is an issue. Ethical fairness is an issue, diversity, inclusion, accessibility is all an issue. And, you know, as soon as industry wide standards are, you know, created and signed off and acknowledged and practice, these types of experiences will be able to launch an in a safe way. And people won't have to worry about all of those teeny, tiny, tiny, fine print that you probably can't read anyway, if that answers the question

Amber 5:39

perfectly, and yeah, I too, am a deep skeptic, of the tiny fine print. So I definitely like the idea of the ethics just being built into the system rather than me, as a consumer having to vet everything I actually tried to engage with.

Muki 5:56

Right, that's, that's putting a lot of onus on on a fan or user that starts the experience that they forget to do it, and then you know, who's there, then suddenly that user is held accountable. And it shouldn't be, it should be the platforms and the creators and the developers. They, you know, we, as creators, have a responsibility to look after our users and on and the fans to make sure that they have a good experience and come back and nothing is abused. What the standards are set out to do is that your digital assets, which is you, your data, your likeness, your image, your emails, your bank details, everything is kept secure, and people build trust again. So it's about building trust, really, with these devices and experiences.

Amber 6:45

Exactly. I mean, we've talked, I mean, you've already mentioned a bit about standards. And I guess that leads straight into my next question of, because you've personally had such a hand in actually drafting the standards, specifically the cyber xR tech standards, I'd really just love to hear a bit more about kind of specifically, just some examples of what those standards look like kind of what the vision is, for this kind of regulation.

Muki 7:12

Yeah, I think it's it is about, you know, building those types of standards and the inclusion, diversity in ADA, from the beginning, it's about thinking of them first, thinking about that end user experience and being very transparent. From with what you build, why you're building it, if you need data off of people, it's very, very clear from the top, what you're, what you're asking from somebody, and what you're going to do with it. And those are the types of standards that we're pushing that it's got to be regulatory, and it's got to be very clear, and it's got to be practised by all, in a way, it's tech for good that these types of standards are, are started to be implemented into the experience experiences, you know, and overall, included in that is, within safety is building safe environments for people. So you can go into an experience and never feel like you will be bullied, emotionally or racially or be judged by abused, you know, no matter what your religion or gender is, you know, it should be genuinely xR for all. And unfortunately, there are lots of experiences and you know, games and developers and people creating things that are not safe environments. So with the standards that cyber xR coalition has been creating and endorsing and pushing forward to, you know, regulatory bodies is that that building, building and creating safe virtual environments, whether that's mixed reality, virtual reality, augmented reality, holographic reality, haptics reality, etc. that will be that the guidelines will be followed. So that way, you as a user, that might not know anything about that kind of stuff can go into the experience, and know that you'll be safe and you'll be you'll feel you'll enjoy it, you know, and know that you're that you're that you're going to be in a in a in a protected environment to and other people will look after you because that's new, that's new and xR. Safe, feeling safe.

Amber 9:47

I mean, yeah, that really, um, I think that that really draws on one of the points that Rob was making about fake news. And how actually, without regulation, we could find ourselves in a world where you see Blitz Clouds. And they're not the same as other people are seeing, and you actually find yourself being kind of pushed into this little echo chamber, and how that's kind of already what's happening on the internet. So it's very much a real threat for these emerging technologies like AR VR.

Muki 10:17

Yes, and I, and the good news for that, because I'm, I'm a glass half full girl, and I can you know, I know firsthand that there are circles within the industry that are really pushing to make that change. And really, really, really backing and endorsing good solid guidelines that I hope people will be following. And you know, with that comes up upskilling people and educating people and another initiative, the cyber x our colleagues are doing, you know, they're working with the Girl Scouts of America and teaching safety and responsibility in STEM and steam led initiatives. And they've actually developed within the Girl Scouts of America, Kansas City, Missouri branch, a Girl Scout badge for xR. Like how amazing is that? Back in my day, it was like baking or So yeah, I mean, I'm not that old. But it's like or hiking or orienteering, you know, and now you can get a badge and, and safety and xR. And that's where it starts. It is it is really making sure that it's not just about Oh, the next gen, the next gen, because we can't, the only people you can rely on is yourself and to be leading by a good example. And, and educating as many people around you, but it's a bonus when you can feed young minds with positive, positive action. Really?

Amber 11:41

I mean, first, I want that badge and I want to put it on my CV, because let's do it, let's just go to the Girl Scouts entirely. And I mean, I think that really also leads, I guess, into like, kind of the big final question, which is all about climbing. Yeah, the X the cyber xR project is so much about even though these regulations aren't law, really educating people and getting those guidelines out there. And I guess why is it so important for developers creators in the UK to be building those guidelines into their systems now?

Muki 12:18

I think it's to keep them in a job to, you know, to build some ethical sounding boards and get people thinking ethically, and getting people to think about being responsible. And, you know, if more and more companies and from very large, you know, the fangs, have you heard of this acronym? Fang? Oh, yes. It's the Facebook, Amazon, apple, Netflix and Google and are broadcasting terms. That's called Fang. Weirdly, Fang is kind of a word that gives you a visual of something nasty, right? Like the the teeth of a wolf, or something. Um, but the point is, those, you know, to add, to your point into your question about, you know, why would developers want to be showing those initiatives? And sorry, that's not a full on quote of what your question was, but you know, it should be practised by the large conglomerates to startups. And, and I think the at, you know, eventually, some startups formed to remain indie and retain control of their own responsibility and play lines. And Rob Morgan is a fantastic, brilliant example of an indie studio that does just that. And there's other indie studios that want to be bought out by big companies. But you want to make sure that if you do go that route, if you pursued that route, you find yourself in a good environment and a good home that can reflect and endorse and take action on and match your ethos and your values of how you develop and how you create these experiences.

Amber 14:02

I mean, that is an absolutely lovely point to end on. Although I will ask I guess just that last rounding up question. Say I'm a small startup, a small developer, what is I guess the one piece of advice that you would give to me the takeaway from this,

Muki 14:19

the best advice if you're a startup, a developer, you know, talk to as many people as you can read up as much as you can about, you know, safety, inclusion and making fairness and accessibility part of your own rules. And then you're gonna always have a much better product, and much better user experience than if you did not practice those. Thank you. Goodnight. To the waitress. I'm here all week.

Amber 14:45

Literally. Absolutely. Perfect. I think with that, all that has left me to say is an absolutely massive thank you to Muki thank you so much for joining me.

Muki 14:53

I love chatting to you and let's let's do this again. And I think it's if anyone's got any extra questions. They could tweet me at At Muki approved, and also, you know, contact Rob or myself through play lines as well or LinkedIn, hit me on LinkedIn. And it's always good to, you know, maybe we could follow up on this with with a roundtable with them with a few other extra extra folks and developers and just keep the conversation going really important.

Amber 15:20

I would absolutely love to and yes, all of the relevant details will all just be in the show notes as well, for anyone listening who wants to dig into a little further. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you.